An Enlightenment Interview with
Dan Millman

[Jordan S. Gruber conducted this interview with Dan Millman via e-mail in late July, 1998. The interview was inspired by Dan's new book, Everyday Enlightenment: The Twelve Gateways to Personal Growth, which, as its title alone indicates, touches on many themes found here at www.Enlightenment.com. Odds are, this will be one of the most interesting sessions of 20 Questions you've ever encountered.]

1. Books like Everyday Enlightenment, as wonderful as they may be, are notorious for their inability to motivate readers to actually do the exercises contained within. Other than forming groups of practitioners (as Murphy and Leonard urge people to do in The Life We Are Given), what is the best way for someone to actually go through your book, Pathway by Pathway, and actually get themselves to do the exercises?

ANS: I don't know what you mean by "books like Everyday Enlightenment." Nor can I comment on hypothetical books. Everyday Enlightenment is not designed to "motivate" readers, since, as it clearly points out, motivation comes and goes. The second gateway/chapter, "Reclaim Your Will" directly addresses the perennial challenge of turning what we know into what we actually do. Whether or not a reader does the exercises is not within my control (nor should it be); in any case, daily life provides the exercises that test and teach us.

In answer to your last question above, I quote from Everyday Enlightenment:

To change the course of your life, choose one of two basic methods:

1. You can direct your energy and attention toward trying to fix your mind, find your focus, affirm your power, free your emotions and visualize positive outcomes so that you can finally develop the confidence to display the courage to discover the determination to make the commitment to feel sufficiently motivated to do what it is you need to do.

2. Or you can just do it.

Any questions?

2. All of the exercises in your book are not of the same difficulty. One, in particular, stuck out in my mind as being very difficult to undertake: the exercise where you write down, really, what your mate/partner has given to you, in detail, so that you get clear as to what your own debt of gratitude actually is. Again, then, how can someone who reads your book convince themselves, by themselves, to undertake this and some of the other more difficult exercises?

ANS: The "Three-Question Reality Check" to which you refer requires some self-reflection, but isn't terribly difficult. Life itself can be difficult. In any case, it is difficult to overcome our tendencies to be lazy, self-centered, distracted, etc. Even so, we need to do it if we are to reach our human maturity. No one has to convince themselves to undertake an exercise. See Answer #1 above – just do it.

3. Why *12* Gateways? When I worked at Gnosis Magazine, it never ceased to amaze me how many different submissions – letters, articles, even phone calls – would extol the virtues of different numbers, or systems based on different numbers. Moreover, books like Michael Schneider's A Beginner's Guide to Constructing the Universe (Harper Collins, 1994) make it clear that every number (at least one through 10) is sacred, holy, and a necessary link in the geometrical foundation of our universe. So what is it about the number 12, in your opinion, that makes it special or different or better able to be the grounding numerical pattern behind a truly effective system for achieving everyday enlightenment?

ANS: I personally agree that every number through 10, and perhaps through 12, can be considered sacred. As my book THE LIFE YOU WERE BORN TO LIVE clearly shows, there is far more to numbers than we have yet fathomed. I did not set out to write 12 Gateways – I would have preferred nine, or seven, or even three -- much simpler. It just came out twelve. In one of my other books, THE LAWS OF SPIRIT, I ended up with twelve laws. Again, not deliberately; just came out that way.

4. You state early on in the book that enlightenment experiences – flashes of cosmic consciousness, if you will – pass, and that peak experiences fade as well. Do you believe this is true of all earthly teachers, including, for example, Buddha and Jesus? Is the notion of a permanently elevated state just something "sold" to us either to make us have more deference to teachers and gurus, or in order to get us to crave what it is that religious and spiritual systems say they have to offer?

ANS: I've noticed that life passes moment to moment – a series of moments. In some moments we are intelligent; others, not so smart; some moments we may act/be neurotic; not in others. No one is happy or sad or angry all the time; some moments we even forget to grieve. I've spent time with several teachers considered by many (and in fact, by themselves) to be enlightened; yet I've seen them in unenlightened moments. This understanding helps resolve the paradox of whether someone is or is not "enlightened" – depends on which moment you catch them. Some understandings may tend to persist, but I don't see enlightenment as much a "permanent state" as a realization that may manifest more strongly in some moments than others.

5. This is a follow-up to the last question. You write "no one is nice, or intelligent, or dull, or neurotic, or enlightened all the time. It is simply not realistic. So the practice of enlightenment should not be taken as some kind of idealized, all-the-time-pie-in-the-sky perfection." There are many people who follow teachers or gurus who they believe are full-time enlightened beings. Do you think these people are just fooling themselves when they seek and later follow teachers or gurus who they believe are permanently enlightened in just the sense that you seem to be casting doubt on?

ANS: I addressed this issue to some degree in the last question. I don't know whether people are hopeful, idealistic, or deluded. Nor am I in a position to judge someone else's level of awareness. I'm only pointing out what I understand about reality. Perhaps some teachers/sages/gurus who state that they are enlightened are correct – perhaps it is beyond my understanding. But the question may then become, so what? How does their enlightenment absolve us of our own responsibility to act with loving kindness, to maintain compassionate relationships, and address the issues of the twelve gateways I present in Everyday Enlightenment?

6. One last time: You state a few times that there are no enlightened persons, but rather, that each of us has a greater or fewer number of enlightened moments. ("There are no enlightened people, no nice, bad, smart, neurotic, or stupid people, either -- only people with more (or less) enlightened, nice, bad, smart, neurotic, or stupid moments.") How does that notion dovetail with the theory of Professor Jim Fadiman, a contributor to this website, who says that we all have many sub-personalities and "mental health is being in the right mind at the right time?" In other words, do we all have a relatively or most enlightened sub-personality, and part of Everyday Enlightenment is learning to access that sub-personality?

ANS: There is only One Light but many lamps. Many teachers each expressing to the best of his or her understanding, based upon different lineages, experiences, and insights. In a sense we are each and all presenting models or metaphors of reality. Jim Fadiman, whose ideas I enjoy, comes from a psychological background, so he presents psychological models. Rather than getting into who's right or whose model is the best, we need to respect the "different fingers pointing at the moon" and, at the same time, remember the five blind men each touching a different part of the elephant, each describing a different creature. I speak of moments; Jim Fadiman speaks of "sub-personalities." You say to-may-to, and I say, to-mah-to...

7. Your use of your own personal experiences throughout the book gives your writing a friendly, warm, and even down-home appeal. Do you ever wonder if making yourself so "human" through your anecdotes might, in some way, take away from the power of your message, that is, do you ever think that people might want to experience you as some sort of perfect master, and that by not giving them that they are less likely to take you seriously and practice what you have to say hard?

ANS: I suppose I could wear robes, grow my beard, and wrap my short legs into a full lotus, but I'm not playing that kind of game, here – it is my simple, ordinary humanity that helps to build bridges. I'm here to teach, to share, not to impress others with my "holiness" or wisdom. I'm not here to convince anyone of my views; only to express them with clarity. The important thing is not in trusting me; it's in trusting yourself.

8. The question of what to do about "siddhis," about extraordinary powers, has long vexed students of enlightenment. There are at least two issues to consider here. The first is whether some of the things we have been told about actually happened. In your case, for example, one can't help wondering whether Socrates really jumped from the ground onto a roof twenty or thirty feet high.

ANS: At my website, www.danmillman.com, I have a Q&A feature in which I clarify what is, and is not, factual in Way of the Peaceful Warrior. I won't repeat all that here, except to say that we need to do some reality checks. No, the old man I called Socrates could most definitely not jump up onto rooftops. I suggest that anyone remain an agnostic or even a healthy skeptic about things they hear or read about, and to understand and accept spiritual laws of this realm rather than getting fascinated with powers. The greatest and most human powers, as I describe them in Everyday Enlightenment, are the twelve gateways.

8-A. Second, what about those powers that are demonstrable. For example, although I first doubted it, when I read your book on numerology and career paths, and calculated the numbers for my wife and myself, it became clear to me that 99 and maybe 100 out of 100 people who knew us both would correctly match each of us to our corresponding number and description.

Or, more to the point, when I personally once came to you for what you called a Life Reading, you performed an "energetic clearing" at the end of the session. I distinctly felt something – I can only describe it as an energetic transfer – that passed between us, and there's no doubt in my mind that someone beyond the bounds of "normal" science was going on. I'm quite clear that something happened that would have been thought unusual even by the fellows at the Skeptical Inquirer.

ANS: I'm now reading a book by the president of the Skeptics Society, Michael Schermer, called Why People Believe Weird Things: Pseudoscience, Superstition, and Other Confusions of Our Time. I recommend the book as a grounding influence, to help sharpen our critical thinking skills. Let's keep our head in the clouds, but our feet on the ground. As you point out, Jordan, the "Life Purpose (numerological) System" and material in THE LIFE YOU WERE BORN TO LIVE is, as Deepak Chopra noted on the back cover, uncannily accurate. Yet I have no scientific way to explain how adding up the numbers in one's date of birth on the Gregorian calendar could possibly give reliable, valid, accurate, and on-the-nose information about our individual life purpose, etc. But it clearly does.

As far as the "energetic clearing" I performed some years ago, I suggest that it was a sincere, heartfelt ceremony or ritual, and that your own heart created the energy; I did nothing to you or for you except caring.

8-C. So, did Socrates really jump onto that roof, what do you think about "extraordinary powers" in general, and how did you happen to come upon those powers that you personally do, indeed, seem to have?

ANS: "No," as explained, about the rooftop, and I have no powers that aren't also accessible by anyone else. I can do double somersaults on the trampoline; that is a "power" I developed through practice and training. If I have a power, it is the power of love, caring, compassion. Other powers don't interest me. And even kindness is a power I only have in some moments.

9. You have a true flair for words. For example, "Destiny has a way of dropping a trail of bread crumbs – one small goal at a time – to mark the path." That's really very nice. Or this one (which I triple underlined):

Whatever form fear takes, your willingness to face it squarely will determine your fate in the high country of human potential.

When I read these lines, complex metaphysical principles became much clearer for me. How do you come up with such images and metaphors, and do you consciously and strategically use them to make things easier for people to understand?

ANS: I'm pleased that you liked, and highlighted those phrases. I was quite pleased when they appeared to my awareness. They are not mine; they came through me rather than from me in moments of openness and inspiration. And if my words touch others and help them to understand, then my efforts and work are justified.

10. You write "...we subconsciously 'train' others how to treat us through messages we send through body language, tone of voice, and other subtle cues and behaviors." This strikes me as obviously true, yet something that is very hard to own up to. Could you elaborate a little more on how this works, how these subtle cues go back and forth between people, and how we might sabotage ourselves by our own lack of self-worth?

ANS: Awareness heals. The freer our attention, the deeper and broader our awareness and sight, the greater our clarity of expression and impact on the world. If I bit my lip and frowned every time I met a new person – but was unaware that I was doing this – I might inadvertently make a poor impression. If I asked for a date by saying, "You wouldn't want to go out with me . . . would you?" I'm less likely to achieve the desired outcome than if I realized how I was asking and changed it to, "I'd love to take you to dinner Friday night... does eight o'clock sound good to you?"

In Everyday Enlightenment I point out that self-sabotage, due to a low sense of self-worth (different from self-esteem), is subconscious. We don't consciously say, "I think I'll sabotage my relationship (or finances or health)." That's why "Discover Your Worth" is the first gateway we need to address.

11. Many of your notions are so very practical and obvious (in the best sense of that term) that I find myself in complete agreement with them. For example, I'm clear that if I could consistently apply the principles and Pathways that you elaborate, I would be farther along my own road.

However, many people – for example, many of the viewers of this website – have much more "high-brow" and complex psychological, mystical, mythical, and spiritual systems that they follow. Your book seems to have no complex metaphysics, or at least it doesn't dwell there very often. Do you perhaps think that such complex systems miss the point, or that maybe most people who follow them are using them as avoidance mechanisms to put off the real, hard, practical work of everyday enlightenment?

ANS: I don't want readers to have to subscribe to my (or any particular) belief system in order to apply what they learn. I point out some aspects of reality, and ask readers to observe and to judge for themselves. My work may seem "too simple" or "basic" to some readers who like abstract metaphysical or philosophical concepts, but as a past athlete and coach, I prefer practical outcomes to abstract philosophy.

12. You have some very funny stories and anecdotes in your book, like the one about Richard Dreyfuss in the film Moon over Parador. Do you keep a big file of these stories for later use? How do you manage to find the right story to illustrate the point you are making at a given time?

ANS: The stories I tell just come up for me from some memory bank – I search for whatever example or anecdote or illustration I can to help make a point. The process is a mystery to me . . .

13. As a minor pet peeve, let me ask: Why doesn't your book have an index? I find indexes universally useful, and I'm wondering if the lack of an index was the publisher's choice, and if so, what their rationale was.

ANS: You raise a very good point. My editor never suggested or asked for an index. I think it would be an excellent idea. I'll ask my editor whether we can create an index for the paperback edition of Everyday Enlightenment, due out in the spring of 1999. Thank you for the suggestion.

14. Your views on meditation are somewhat unorthodox, and some might say even a bit irreverent. Could you quickly sum them up and how you came to them?

ANS: Actually, I have great respect for the many approaches to what we call meditation, and recommend the practice. I myself meditate every day – for about 30 seconds. Not for the reasons others may meditate, however. It's just that meditation has been put up on a pedestal as a special "Eastern, mystical practice" or touted as the key to everything. I see it more as an important fitness exercise (in terms of balancing our nervous systems and lives.)

15. You write in the chapter on Trust Your Intuition that with respect to healing:

No single approach works for everyone. The secret is to find out which modality appeals to you – which inspires, interests, or captures your imagination – which one you most believe in, because it is that which empowers you to heal.

If we substitute the word "become enlightened" for "heal" at the end of this last sentence, it would represent equally well the core message of this website. Would you agree that whichever psycho-spiritual teaching, teacher, or technique is the one that someone most believes in is the one that is, in fact, likely to be the most efficacious in helping them advance on the road to enlightenment (or, in your terms, to more enlightened moments)?

ANS: Yes, and no. I do respect each individual's path, which may be different from someone else's. That's why there are more than one book in the libraries; more than one teacher or teaching. More than one form of Yoga, or one form of meditation. Ultimately, each of us must explore all twelve gateways to personal and spiritual growth on the winding path to our human potential, and what lies beyond. But I'm not sure that any path or teaching leads to enlightenment. I believe it is available at any time, by grace, when we're paying attention.

Resolving the issues of the twelve gateways frees our attention. Ramakrishna said, "If you try to open a walnut shell when the shell is still green, it is nearly impossible; but if you wait until it is ripe, it opens with a tap." I believe that the twelve gateways of everyday life form our ripening process. Then it's up to God or Spirit, in whatever form it appears.

16. Your writing on emotions, and your metaphorical equation of them with the weather, seems especially profound to me. You write, for example, that:

Since you have no more direct control over your feelings than you have over the weather, the best you can do is to act as constructively as you can despite your feelings – they will pass soon enough, in any case. In the meantime, you can accomplish what you set out to do.

This strikes me as being a particularly American, pragmatic, approach to life. How can you be so certain that "You are responsible for what you do with your feelings – how you respond to them – but not for what you feel." Do you find people who deny the key premise here, and who claim that they can, in fact, control their emotions?

ANS: Dr. David K. Reynolds, Ph.D., and his wonderful book on Constructive Living, provided a bridge for me to, as he might put it, "Reality's teachings." His influence, and that of those who taught him, such as psychiatrist Shoma Morita, and Isshin Yoshimoto, all help us to see the world, and ourselves, more realistically.

I've expressed issues of control – related to mind and emotions – as best I could, clearly pointing to the difference between influencing thoughts and emotions, which we can do in some sense, and directly trying to control or fix them, which we cannot do. Rather than trying to quiet the mind or feel better, we are better off paying attention to behaving or acting kindly, constructively.

To understand more about this, one would have to read Everyday Enlightenment or one of Dr. Reynolds wonderful books.

17. Similarly, the following is a simply marvelous metaphor from your book:

If your goal is to carry a child home to its mother, and you are walking through a storm, you may notice the weather around you, but you remain attentive to carrying out your purpose – getting the child home. This is how you can carry on with you life in all kinds of emotional weather. And as you mature ... a time will come when you transcend emotions – not because they have gone away, but because you have made peace with your feelings, letting them pass through you like wind through a forest. You will continue to know and honor what you feel. But rather than resist or struggle against the tides of emotion, you'll persist through all kinds of weather.

But when you first go out into the storm, isn't it perfectly natural and normal to emotionally react to the presence of the storm? In asking people to not react to or be overly affected by strong emotions, isn't it possible that you are asking too much and being unrealistic?

ANS: Your question points to the controversial and tricky nature of this issue, and how easily it becomes misunderstood. Nothing I have written states, or implies, that we should "not react" or "be affected" by strong emotions. In fact, the Seventh Gateway is titled, "Accept Your Emotions" – that is, accept what you are feeling completely as natural and normal for you in that moment – but WITHOUT letting it drive your behavior or run your life.

This has nothing to do with devaluing or suppressing emotions. It means completely accepting, valuing, knowing, feeling, and honoring what you feel, whether or not it feels pleasant – then focusing on what you can control – your behavior.

18. The book's final recommendation is that "Enlightenment is as enlightenment does," that you should "fake it 'til you make it," and that you "can practice enlightenment by living it every day, behaving as if you were enlightened, whether or not you understand it or feel like it."

Now, in my own life, I've occasionally made the *right* choice in a difficult situation by imagining myself to be the man I've always wanted to be, and then acting from that place, regardless of my feelings.

Still, it seems that your recommendation here could be criticized for being simplistic, or overly behavioristic, and not realistic in that great internal changes will not necessarily follow from external changes in behavior since these are simply two different realms. Ken Wilber's 4-fold matrix comes to mind, wherein one major axis for understanding and describing reality is the interior vs. the exterior (e.g., my thoughts/feelings vs. my behavior).

Have you thought about the possibility that your formulation may, in fact, be overly simplistic and therefore impractical?

ANS: If one's approach to personal growth rests on the assumption that our feelings and thoughts necessarily determine our behaviors, then in order to improve our behaviors – to show self-discipline, kindness, integrity, etc. – we first have to "quiet our minds," "clear our beliefs," learn to "think positively" (all the time), "develop (only) positive emotions – to "fix our insides" the popular approach to psychotherapy and spirituality, seeking "inner solutions."

To me, this approach simply doesn't work. I feel like the child in the tale of "The Emperor's New Clothes." I can only suggest that by focusing on what we have MORE control over – our actions, the way we move our hands, and feet and mouths, and the words we speak – we are more likely to live an enlightened life than if we focus on what we have LESS control over, such as our thoughts and feelings. I can only point this out, and let my readers draw their own conclusions.

19. You indicate in the book that you have gone through many trainings and teachings and have done a great deal of personal growth work. Suppose you were 25 years old, had not yet done any self-development work, and you came upon Everyday Enlightenment.

Do you think that this book, on its own, would have been enough to get you to where you are now? In other words, as practical and excellent as your book is, won't most people still find it necessary to wander through the synchronistically chaotic path of finding teachers and practices and communities?

ANS: I cannot speak for my 25-year-old self, or anyone else's, for that matter. I've received letters from people of all ages. Of course our readiness and openness changes over time. Each of us wanders through whatever experiences we need in order to gather life experience.

Everything serves, in its own way; we fail before we succeed; we make mistakes and we learn. We suffer pain and loss and find joy and pleasure. I cannot control what others do or when they are ready; I can only express my heartfelt offerings for those who find them interesting, and I hope useful.

20. You state that no practice is right for everyone. But is it right for everyone to have a practice? (And what about the practice of having no practice?)

ANS: Whether or not we are consciously aware of it, a flame burns in each of us, and our soul seeks union, and we seek meaning, and purpose, and direction. We awaken at our own pace. Ultimately, there is no problem, only a process, and that process is perfect.

The path appears wherever we step. We may have no conscious practice and make a religion or philosophy of this. Still, daily life awaits us, tests us, challenges and teaches us. Daily life is God's classroom, and our practice while we live.

I hope you enjoyed my responses as much as I enjoyed your questions, which I found quite astute and to the point.

All best wishes,

Dan

| Home |